Wednesday, February 22, 2006

Sunni day results in storm of violence

Iraqi militants blow up sacred shrine

BAGHDAD, Iraq (MSNBC) - Assailants wearing uniforms detonated two bombs inside one of Iraq’s most revered Shiite shrines Wednesday, blowing the top off its landmark golden dome and spawning mass protests and reprisal attacks against dozens of Sunni mosques as leaders pleaded for calm. [...]

Despite calls for calm from Shiite leaders, militants attacked Sunni mosques, including a shrine containing the tomb of Talha bin Obeid-Allah, a companion of Islam's Prophet Muhammad, in the southern city of Basra. The extent of the damage was not immediately clear.

Things must be really, really bad in Iraq if it's at this point. We talk about two Americas, but Iraq has got us beat in that department. Sunnis versus Shiites? Makes Democrats versus Republicans look like a friendly card game. And the Civil War look like preseason.

Think of a parallel situation in the United States: How bad would things have to get for Democrats to blow up St. Patrick's Cathedral? I know, it's in New York City and the church is not exactly representative of the religious right; but hey, does that make any less sense than the real situation in Iraq?

All I know is that, as much as I get angry at the fundamentalist faction trying to rewrite U.S. law, I would never even consider reacting that way. It takes a collective mind far sicker than any of us probably know to inflame tensions so severely. And it doesn't look to change any more now than it has for the past 3,000 years. Sad.

Yet another solid argument for separation of church and state.


The Theorist said...

Ahhh, the sweet smell of freedom moving across the Middle East.

Cajun Tiger said...

It's definitely more than just rhetoric here as far as two Iraqs, actually three if you count the Kurds.

Don't agree with your solid argument however.

It's not ANY religion that is causing these problems, it's A religion. When a religion teaches that it is ok to kill anyone who doesn't believe what you believe, that is not a religion you want in control of a state.

Ian McGibboney said...

Any religion can be perverted when used by those in power to justify their brutality. It's happened with Christianity in the past and it's going on now with Islam (aggravated by the fundies in power in the U.S. now). It's messy from any angle, so why have it?

Cajun Tiger said...

As much as you want to rid government of all religion, if that were to truly happen, it wouldn't be a government you would want to live in...didn't see mass people flocking to the Soviet Union did you? No, quite the opposite, people from the Soviet Union were dying all the time trying to get to the Christian based government of the United States.

Ian McGibboney said...

1) The Soviet Union collapsed not because of its lack of religion, but because our arms race forced them into bankruptcy. The fact that China remains a communist powerhouse would seem to refute your religion theory all by itself.

2) I am against state establishment of religion, not necessarily for having a government of all athiests (though I'd argue that'd be better than the ironic God posturing going on right now).

3) A far-religious-right America would not be a desirable place for most Americans either.

4) You brag about how people flock to America, and yet you guys want to block most of them from getting in.

Cajun Tiger said...

1. I never said it collapsed due to lack of religion. It was b/c of the lack of religion that is was a miserable place to live, just like China is now.

2. How can you have government without standards? Where do you get standards without religion? The only thing the Constitution forbids is a federal religion which everyone would have to belong to in order to have any rights. That is not America and it never will be.

3. Let's see which far religious right principles would you like removed...Thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal, thou shall not lie, thou shall not bear false witness?

4. The only people I want blocked from entering are the ones who are entering ILLEGALLY. I don't see how that is so hard for your side to understand. If you follow the law you are more than welcome to come to our country, but if you don't I want you arrested and sent back to home.

Ian McGibboney said...

1) America can be a miserable place to live, too. Not the worst in the world, granted; but still pretty bad when you're downtrodden.

2) It's easy to have standards without religion. The Constitution nailed it pretty good without a single beatific reference.

3) How about the other six commandments that have nothing to do with American law? I'm not religious, but I don't lie, cheat, steal or kill. Anyway, it isn't as if all four of those things aren't condoned in various ways under American law.

4) Nick says the same thing about immigration, and yet neither of you ever make the distinction between legal and illegal. Are you saying the laws are absolutely perfect? I say we look into why so many people are willing to brave the illegal wave to get into here, and see what we can do to accommodate them. All most of them want are a better life. Capture the drug smugglers and potential Mexican terrorists, of course, but why blanketly condemn the innocent ones?

jester said...

When thinking of the Shiites and Sunnis, it's tempting to want to say, "Just let the bastards kill all of each other and be done with it. It's their destiny 3000 years in the making. The world will be safer without them anyway." I've heard my own father say that, but it's wrong to give up on people like that, no matter how crazy they may be. I hope the GIs that are over there now can stop the coming genocide. Lord knows they've already been laying down their lives.

Cajun Tiger said...

1. I don't see our "downtrodden" running for the borders to get out. Poverty in our nation is no where near poverty in 90% of the world and they all have the opportunity to rise out of poverty here, unlike in most other countries.

2. "Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian." - United States Supreme Court, 1892.

George Mason is called the father of the Bill of Rights, for he insisted that the first ten amendments be added to the Constitution. The purpose for such an addition? "The laws of nature are the laws of God, whose authority can be superseded by no power on earth," Mason said.

James McHenry was a member of the Continental Congress, a state legislator, a soldier, and a signer of the Constitution stated:

Neither...let it be overlooked, that public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures.

The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability, and usefulness.

Patrick Henry boldly declared:

It cannot be emphasized too strongly that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded assylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here.

the Constitution of the United States was drafted so as to be in accordance with the Scriptures, to be the legal foundation of a republican form of government based on that model which God had ordained for the children of Israel. Indeed, Thomas Jefferson even suggested that the national seal be a portrayal of "the children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night."

Thomas Jefferson, on his memorial: "God who gave us life, gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that the liberties are the gift of God?"

2 Corinthians 3:17: "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty."

Ex 18:21 look familar anywhere? Maybe our court system?

Benjamin Franklin founded the first public school system for the main purpose of teaching kids to read so they could read the Bible.

I could quote hundreds more.

3. You don't lie?...well I think you just did. Don't worry not one of us are able to keep every commandment, that's where Christ's sacrifice for our sins comes into play.

4. I think I made a very clear distinction...I said "ones who are entering ILLEGALLY". The reason they are willing to get here by whatever means possible is b/c we have the best nation in the world and they will risk anything to be a part of it. I can totally sympathize with them, but our laws must be upheld. No way we can just open the floodgates and let everyone who wants to come just come. That would destroy our ecomony and thus our great nation. If they are breaking the law they are not innocent. And that isn't even placing consideration on a post 9-11 world.

Cajun Tiger said...

I wrote a pretty indepth response, but for some reason it didn't post. I'll maybe try again tomorrow.

Cajun Tiger said...

You would know that as soon as I say something like that it shows up...I thought I had refreshed, but maybe I didn't. I'll just blame it on my fine LSU education =)